In this first part of the episode, we’ll discuss heteronormativity and the stereotype of the West promoting gay culture with our guest, Anya, in simple terms. Anya, a human rights activist currently living in Belgrade, shares her first impression of the pride event in the city. She talks about the vibrant impressions she felt at the event. Curious to know more? Tune in to the episode! Anya’s immersion into LGBT culture was an exhilarating experience that opened new horizons of understanding and acceptance for her. This experience helped her better understand and support the LGBT community. Ultimately, Anya’s participation in exhibitions and documentary screenings strengthened her convictions and desire to continue fighting for equality.
Episode Transcript:
Dima (interviewer): Hello everyone. You are listening to a new episode of the podcast “Overcoming Barriers.” The aim of the podcast is not to identify specific reasons for relocation, but more about the attitudes and overcoming the boundaries between the LGBT+ community and society as a whole. In the EU, Europe, the CIS, and particularly in Russia.
Therefore, the main goal of the project is to support the hope of the LGBT+ community in difficult times and to highlight the transformative potential of personal stories. We strive to show that those who previously doubted the LGBTQIA+ community can change their views and embrace new perspectives.
This is why we decided to create this pilot podcast project "Overcoming Barriers." We believe that every person has intrinsic social value and contributes to the richness of cultural diversity.
Today, we’ll talk about heteronormativity with our guest, Anna. Anna, hello!
Anya (Guest): Hi Dima! Thanks for inviting me to your podcast.
Dima: Let me briefly introduce our guest to the listeners. Anna is a lawyer. Before the war, she lived in Russia and then emigrated to Serbia. She frequently travels across Europe and is involved in activism. She loves making short films. So, Anya, if it's okay with you, I'll address you informally. We are also interested in looking not only at the homogeneity of internal factors within our community and discussing our personal issues but also at how the heterosexual community perceives LGBT individuals.
What interesting thoughts can help us overcome these barriers, and what common ground do we share in the environment we all find ourselves in? That's how I see today's podcast episode with you.
Anya: Let's do it!
Dima: When we talk about heteronormativity, there is a widespread stereotype that the acceptance of gay culture by Russian society is something Western, something foreign. Nowadays, the term "traditional values" is often used, even by people who don't understand what these traditional values mean. There isn't a concrete definition, you can't just look it up in a dictionary or truly grasp it. What do you think? Based on your extensive life experience, is this stereotype that gay culture is being imposed by the West true or false? I started with a tough question right away.
Anya: Yes, a hard-hitting question. I like it; it sets a good tone and rhythm for the conversation. To answer briefly, my response might surprise you, but it's "both yes and no." Now, I hope I can explain what I mean.
Anya: I think, in general, you know, if you look into the depths, not too deep, but deeper. Throughout Russia's history, whether in the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, or modern Russia, there hasn't been a normal, tolerant attitude towards LGBTQ+ people, right?
Dima: Correct.
Anya: Individuals.
Dima: We can just say "LGBT+ community" for short. I think people won't mind.
Anya: Yes, let's agree on that for brevity. As a lawyer, I want to clarify the terms to avoid offending anyone. When I say "LGBT+," I mean all the letters, whether explicitly mentioned or not.
Dima: Of course, because behind those letters are real people.
Anya: As you probably know, in the Soviet Union, what is now referred to as "non-traditional orientation"—a term still used in our "traditional society"—was considered stigmatizing. There was a specific law against male homosexuality in the Criminal Code. Being different and not encouraged by the state was a criminal offense. Fortunately, this specific law no longer exists, but we know of many cases. Although the law has changed, LGBT+ individuals still face persecution. People are attacked, kidnapped, discriminated against at work and school, stalked, and harassed, violating existing laws in every possible way simply because of their orientation, which some people don't understand. In this context, I think a normal attitude...
Anya: I can't say that Western society is imposing anything on us. In my deep belief, of course, European countries would prefer to have developed, reasonable neighbors who respect human rights and treat all citizens well, regardless of race, nationality, orientation, gender, etc. They would like to see that. But I don't feel that Western society, any countries, or governments are actively imposing anything. It's not like they're sending agents or paying for advertisements.
Dima: Anya, sorry to interrupt, but I find it quite amusing, in quotes, when people talk about Western values being imposed, they forget about the other 80 percent of the world. They forget about Asia, Thailand, and so on. You get the point—it’s seen as a Western "thing."
Anya: Yes, indeed. It's as if the rest of the world doesn't exist, and everything is concentrated on a smaller part of the globe. From this perspective, as a Russian citizen, I don't feel that anything is being imposed on me. However, I also don't feel that these values are close to us as Russians, unfortunately. As I mentioned earlier, there hasn't been a normal, adequate attitude towards LGBT+ individuals in Russian history.
Dima: So, if I understand you correctly, you mean that a normal, adequate attitude could take 30 to 50 years to develop the conditions for the LGBT+ community to become a fully integrated part of society?
Anya: Yes, that would be wonderful if there were a generational shift.
Dima: Like the theory of three unbroken generations.
Anya: Exactly, if generations were to change, and these three generations could maintain adequate attitudes. Because right now, we're seeing anything but that. Russia is currently governed by people from the Soviet era, those so-called "wise, silver-haired individuals" who grew up under a criminal code filled with various offenses, including male homosexuality, parasitism, and treason. They could be imprisoned for practically anything. But now, if I remember correctly, LGBT is considered an ideology. It's quite amusing to call a person’s orientation or their choice of gender—if they feel more comfortable as another gender—an ideology.
Dima: It's almost ironic that the Supreme Court of Russia has declared the non-existent LGBT community extremist. They've given us a significant opportunity to ponder the ideological aspect: are we really so dangerous just for choosing whom to love? In a society cultivated on artificial hatred, happiness and love become toxic factors. It's like looking at a distorted mirror.
Anya: Yes, indeed. It’s interesting how remnants of the Soviet era influence this. It reminds me of the lyrics from Noize MC’s song "Traitors." I think many listeners will know what I mean—“Our riot police are so sensitive, our cops so tender, and our president so emotional.” How dangerous can we be?
Dima: A hypersensitive society.
Anya: Exactly. It would be easier if three generations could uphold a standard of adequate attitudes towards LGBT+ individuals. Then, I believe things would change. To answer your question briefly, I see these values as somewhat "Western," because it's in the West that people have finally realized that a person's orientation doesn't affect their professionalism, ability to be a friend, to love, or to lead a country. People understand that orientation, gender change, or being non-binary doesn't impact others. From this perspective, yes, it’s a Western value, but it's not being imposed on us. There are countries where the government is focused on the welfare of the country and its citizens without trying to impose anything on others. Unfortunately, in our culture, I still encounter more homophobia.
Dima: Thank you so much for your detailed opinion and explanation. It's very valuable for all of us. The reason I asked such a tough question right away is that I believe the dichotomy, this artificial division between Western values and so-called traditional values, has been given specific linguistic and terminological form in the last 2-3 years. It's used by a wide range of people, including political figures, to lend weight to their ideology. Discussing this, in my opinion, helps us overcome this barrier. We can see these are artificial constructs.
Anya: Dima, yes, thank you. Actually, this is a very interesting thought, and honestly, I hadn't considered it in this way. This artificial dichotomy indeed aims to create division, to align people with a particular camp, labeling some as "patriots" and others as "disgusting liberals." Probably, blurring these boundaries would help more in addressing discrimination and combating homophobia.
Dima: This brings up a second question. Why is it that in European countries, non-LGBT+ individuals support the LGBTQIA+ community, while in Russia and other Eastern European countries, this harsh dichotomy persists? Do you think this is another barrier to overcome? Perhaps we should consider methods and approaches to unite people, to demonstrate, to show how to behave without infringing on others' boundaries.
As Bertrand Russell once said, "How can we all live together under one open sun, under one open sky? Or will we burn ourselves?"
Anya: One question tougher than the other.
Dima: Anya, it can't be any other way here.
Anya: I see at least three reasons why people in the so-called West—yes, I am of an older generation, a millennial, and still live in this false dichotomy, please understand and forgive me.
Dima: Understand and forgive among whom? Zoomers?
Anya: Yes, no need to throw dislikes at me. No need to doxx me. I would highlight at least three reasons. The first reason is that as someone who doesn't join in supporting, what is the difference between a typical representative of the European community and a Russian one? Firstly, what's on the surface: it's safer for the European community member to do so.
Dima: Just by virtue of the fact that they don't necessarily need to know this. They don't understand, for example, that a kiss in a video clip between two girls or guys could cost a million rubles in fines. That's an enormous amount of money when converted to euros. So, being gay is very expensive. What I'm getting at is that they don't go through the sodomy law; they don't provoke a moral and ethical conflict, although they do provoke it with their traditional, ideological values.
On the other hand, they take the bankruptcy approach, imposing huge fines that are impossible to cover, blocking accounts. It's obvious to everyone that a 21st-century person can't be without money. And they follow this scenario—this fictitious blocking of the possibility of social life, especially in a digital society.
Anya: And, by the way, I wanted to mention, since we're having this conversation, which is a live discussion, that allows us to draw conclusions and correct ourselves along the way.
It seems to me that this article from the criminal code, in its various forms from punitive law in the Soviet Union, has returned, essentially. We do have provisions for propaganda, right? LGBT values, or however it's phrased. We all understand, for example,
Dima: Sorry to interrupt, but yes, this administrative liability is established. Recently, out of personal interest, I looked at what scientific articles students are presenting at conferences. I found some in the Russian Science Citation Index—an analog of citation in Russia and other CIS countries—where students are proposing at youth conferences, I emphasize, youth conferences, the expansion of administrative liability to criminal liability, including for propaganda. So, this carte blanche given by disproportionate legislative technique of restriction and simply silencing LGBTQIA+ people, on the one hand, and the complete irresponsible approach allowing people to say whatever they want, throw stones, etc., on the other hand, is exactly the artificial barrier created by legislative technique, and it works excellently, in quotes, when it comes to the positivist approach to law, i.e., following the letter of the law rather than its natural sense of understanding that behind every law, every such article, fine, there is a real person's life.
This is what holds true value for a European person. That is, human life is a value that is priceless. It cannot be valued. In this sense, it is not an asset; it is an invaluable right.
Anya: Yes, it's truly horrifying to hear that the new young generation, on which we place so much hope, is proposing to toughen discrimination.
Dima: Well, yes, in essence, one person's voice here can drown out everyone else. It's not 100 percent of the students.
Anya: Naturally.
Dima: But there it is, one person travels to another university in another city, writes an article on this topic.
Anya: Yes, I wanted to agree with you that the positivist approach is indeed a road to hell. The history that happened about 90 years ago is a vivid example of why the positivist approach should probably be eradicated for the most part. The law and the letter of the law are all well and good, but everyone, especially lawyers, judges, prosecutors—these are the people who, sorry for the colloquialism, I would call bearers of the idea of law, who should understand more than a non-specialist.
Dima: Anya, this is also a very interesting question because when these two bills were being passed—1) on the expansion of so-called “gay propaganda” and 2) the transphobic bill, as you know, they included one-page records from authorized government bodies and that's it. It was just for the sake of formal reporting. No expert opinions were requested. Even some LGBT organizations, which are still trying to fight in Russia, attempted to sign up for the government hearings of these bills—they were, of course, denied. So, this is another interesting model: laws are being passed without understanding the social structure of society as such. Therefore, the branches of these traditional values are completely detached from reality.
Anya: This relates to the first reason: unfortunately, supporting the LGBT+ community in Russia is unsafe, whereas in Europe, it is safe.
Anya: The second reason, specifically for Russia and other Eastern European countries, and I will make a broad remark here, is that, as far as I know, these are generally more homophobic societies. Especially in Russia, where discrimination is, to put it mildly, encouraged. I believe that until a certain point, our society was making certain positive steps; a canonical example is the group Tatu, which for a while could exist peacefully on our stage and even represent Russia at Eurovision. So, certain steps forward were made. Now, of course, we...
Dima: Yes, now the group Tatu is considered a queerbaiting group that essentially betrayed the LGBT community. One of the singers is even a member of United Russia now.
Anya: Yes, Julia Volkova, I think.
Dima: This is also a great example of barriers. Tatu was a public link between the communities, and there were many such links. Even among zoomers, there's Alena Shvets. The issue is that they are faced with facts and choices, and this history of acceptance is left in the past.
Dima: I'll share an example that continues your thoughts. Recently, I was looking through the archives of the State Council, from before the creation of the Soviet Union, around the 1905s. The issue of LGBT people was being raised even back then. Yes, sodomy is an old term, but it had certain boundaries. Moreover, even state officials and advisors from a hundred years ago did not use such hateful and homophobic language. When you read the text, it is indeed old-school from a hundred years ago, but there is no outright hatred. Furthermore, some gay people supported the Bolsheviks, hoping they would lift some restrictions, including those on holding positions and professions. But when I listen to the St. Petersburg Economic Forum or the Legal Forum from last year when these laws were passed, the current officials speak with such hatred. You could compare it like a Word file to show how much the language framework and the culture of speech affect barriers and understanding.
Dima: Summing up the first part, we can say that using the simple language of love and empathy is crucial. If you don't understand a term, as you immediately asked about LGBTQIA+ earlier, ask, learn, let's discuss it. Show empathy, show love. It is very difficult but very important. This is the first step to overcoming barriers.
Disclaimer: "The podcast is the intellectual property of LGBT World Beside. All rights reserved. Views and opinions expressed in episodes featured on the podcast and website belong solely to the guests. This podcast is supported by the European Cultural Foundation and the European Union."
Comments