Ace
Hello, friends! Today we have a special guest, the head of our organization LGBT World Beside, Harlem Van Hayzer. Our podcast is hosted by As and Adam, volunteers of LGBT World Beside. Hi, guys!
Harlem
Hello! Thank you for having me.
Adam
Harlem, tell us a little about yourself. What are you doing now?
Harlem
I am currently working for a microchip company, and I am also involved in human rights activities in our organization LGBT Work Beside.
Host
Yes, in this regard, I think it would be more interesting for everyone to know how our organization was created, when it was created, who created it, what were the ideas, what served as the prerequisite for the creation of this organization.
Harlem
Actually, this is a very interesting question, and many people ask me this. And it was not planned, in fact, the creation of the organization. There were several reasons why we are here today. The first reason is 2017, that time we helped refugees who came from the Caucasus, from Russia and from the Netherlands to Belgium. And we, a couple of volunteers who arrived a little earlier, helped them. That is, how we helped, we met refugees in the camps, they did not know some of the rules, did not know the language, some of them did not have clothes or did not know who to turn to. We helped them little by little, directed them. And within a few months we had a decent volunteer team of 5-6 people in Belgium and the Netherlands. I was living in the camp myself that time, and my friend Oleg was also in the camp, he also joined in very actively. And it turned out later, by the end of 2017, that even journalists began to contact us, we gave interviews about what was happening in the Caucasus in general, in Russia, why there were so many arrests in the Caucasus, specifically of the LGBTQ community.
As
As far as I understand, the creation of the organization LGBT World Beside is connected with those mass arrests of gays in Chechnya in 2017.
Harlem
Yes, that's right.
Adam
Harlem, where are you from?
Harlem
I came from Russia in 2016, before the mass arrests of the LGBT community began in the Caucasus, in Chechnya.
Adam
And where do you live now?
Harlem
I live in the Netherlands now. Seven years, I guess, yeah.
Adam
And how do you like life in the Netherlands?
Haarlem
If you start life from scratch in any country, it's very difficult. And it was difficult for me too, not knowing the language, not having any acquaintances. At the moment, where I am, what I had to go through to integrate, I will say, now I feel good and confident.
Adam
How do you think your life differs in the Netherlands from Russia?
Haarlem
Confidently being yourself.
Adam
And what does being yourself mean to you?
Haarlem
Well, first of all, not being afraid that you will be insulted or humiliated by the fact that you are different from society. For example, if I ran my own business or met people in Russia , I always had to be careful in these relationships, with new acquaintances, not revealing that I am gay. But there is no such thing here. I mean, I don’t even have to think about what I need to tell, or be afraid, or hide. Here I am as I am, I have rights, like everyone else. That is, there is no such thing as me being infringed upon because I am gay. But in Russia, on the contrary, in recent years it has worsened many times over. And now, after I spent several years in a free country, I could not spend my life in Russia a second time, that’s the difference. I feel free and happy here. Although I lost a lot when I decided to move to another country.
As
Surely many people ask you this question. Tell me a little bit, why do you have such an unusual name? After all, you say that you are from the Caucasus.
Harlem
This is a name which I feel confident with. I chose a new name and surname after I moved. Because I always had problems associated with my name, which my parents gave me according to the documents. It was a Muslim name, and I even had a case when i was said “you do not deserve your name, you have no right to bear a name that belongs to a Muslim society.” Because of this, I was even beaten. And the first thing I decided to do, when I moved to the Netherlands, being in an immigration prison, where I was waiting for the procedure of political asylum to start, at that moment I decided that I would immediately change my name and change my surname, so that it would no longer cause me such harm and would not remind me of my old life.
Adam
Tell me what prompted you to leave Russia?
Harlem
I had many reasons to leave, even several years before I left Russia. I always held on and moved to different cities in Russia, I wanted to be as close to my family and friends as possible. When I faced problems of persecution because I was gay, after being beaten, after being detained, after being blackmailed, I always tried to move away from this and hold out as long as possible in my homeland, in the country where I grew up, got used to, where you know everything. Well, unfortunately, I no longer had the strength for this, and in 2016 I left Russia. I had two reasons. Firstly, my close friend had problems. I saved him and saved myself a little, somehow that incident united us. And due to this, I gained strength and left Russia. It was 2016. Also, I realized that my friends and loved ones could suffer because of me. This was also one of the reasons.
Adam
If you had stayed?
Harlem
Yes, if I had stayed. I had three serious moves within the country. Different cities.
Adam
Do you mean to stay and live in Russia?
Harlem
Yes, yes, to live and stay. I tried it out there. And my last refuge was in Moscow, I thought, a big city, who would recognize me here, who would find me? I miscalculated and also ran into people who wanted to harm me.
As
Here, Adam has a psychological education. And he can tell us about such a phenomenon as rationalization. Because many gays in Russia, actually experiencing what Harlem experienced, or something similar, they stay there and rationalize their stay.
Adam
Yes. I have met a lot of such people. I would like to say that we are talking as if about one region, but at the same time you say that you left for Moscow, tried to stay there, and it still did not help. And here we are now, too, I also see many people from all regions of Russia. And about rationalization, yes, I personally have such friends who really believed for a very long time that something could get better, that... I have seen, right, here, cases, yes, of people who thought that everything was fine, or that it was normal, and now they are here.
As
Well, yes, many people think that things can get better.
Harlem
Yes, I will even say more, in the Caucasus many people do not even know that there is another life, that a person can be gay and he can freely walk with his partner down the street, hold hands, even with a girl, with a guy, with whomever you want. For example, I didn't know either, I learned very late that being gay or lesbian is normal, that it's not a disease. I also thought for a while that I was really sick, that I had deviations, that I didn't fit into the society that I deserved. That is, I also experienced guilt. I thought that I was bringing harm to this society.
Adam
When you came to the Netherlands, when were you able to get rid of that feeling? How much time passed?
Haarlem
When I came, within a year I got into relationship. I met a guy while living in a camp, and we started dating. Once we were walking down the street, in a cafe or somewhere, he took my hand, I jumped away from him and said "no, no, I can't". It was fear. This lasted for about a year, probably, so that I could not freely hold my partner's hand. Or kiss him. Only in certain places, in a bar, in a club, at home, like that. And so little by little he told me that it was normal here, that no one would follow you, no one would stare if you were kissing someone on the street, or standing with a guy, laughing, or sitting drinking coffee. And no one would come up to you and ask who you were to each other or why you were sitting so sweetly. So, again, he taught me, and I resisted. I say, it can't be, someone will want to hit you or insult you now. It was at least a year for me to start behaving freely, to walk with a guy. Or talk on the phone, again, I always turned around like this. When I talked on the phone, I always had to turn around, and check who was nearby, whether someone heard me or not. Yes, all this did not go away in one day, maybe it still hasn't gone away. It's just that I'm such a person, I don't give up, I also had so many problems in Russia, I always kept on going, going, going to what I was striving for, but they didn't allow me that there. Every time they tripped me up, humiliated me, I encountered this a lot. Even when I tell someone what happened to me, I sometimes see in their eyes that not everyone believes it.
As
Do you remember, you said about life in the Caucasus that you can't even call it a gay community, because these are just individual people with a non-hetero orientation in this region. And so they live there and can't imagine that it's possible to live another life. And when they escape from that, when they come to Europe, as far as I understand, the integration of people from the Caucasus is much more difficult here, much more emotionally costly for them.
Harlem
Yes, I agree with that. As many people know, families in the Caucasus are very large, and we are always tied to our relatives, who we must be responsible for. Yes, since you have to leave everything behind, to abandon your native country and relatives. And all your life you have been taught that you must be responsible, that you must be an example, that you must take care of your parents, your relatives. And you were set up for this. And since you are alone in another country, and none of that is there, and you don't know how to accept that, it’s not supposed to be like that either, you shouldn't be alone, right? And these thoughts, they really hinder integration. People from the Caucasus are generally not ready to leave their families, their relatives, their family, customs, and start something, like me, for example, a new life.
Adam
I wanted to ask, what other social barriers did you encounter here in the Netherlands?
Haarlem
Well, like many do, it was the language. To start speaking the language, I had to wait for months, because when you live in a camp, you are not provided with a school to study the language. You can only go for a speaking club week once. Tall-cafe, it is a speaking club where you can just talk with native speakers. But it is not always like that, not every camp has it. That is the first thing that I could not start learning the language. I did not speak English, I did not speak Dutch. And I wanted, it was very stressful for me that I wanted to, but I could not start. I mean, online is one thing, but physically being in school, that was an obstacle. And the second moment is when you encounter a different mentality, a different culture, which you were not prepared for. Adaptation to a new culture. It was also very difficult for me.
Adam
Can you give us some examples about culture? What moments do you remember?
Harlem
For example, you want to go to a friend's house in the evening, and if you haven't planned it in advance, then you practically can't get to him, because here you need to plan everything in advance. This was the hardest thing for me at the beginning, because in the Caucasus and in Russia, well, in Russia you just... If you want to, you call, since your friend is home, you come over. But here it works much differently even with friends. Not to mention work moments. They can simply not let you into the house and say, come another time, let's make an appointment, if you come to visit without notice.
Adam
Can you give any advice to newcomers who have just arrived, what is the best thing for them now to do to get integrated?
Harlem
Start learning the language. Get to know people. Communicate. No need to sit and wait. I think this is the hardest thing. Be aware of yourself. Go towards your dreams. Think. These are the moments that always saved me. When it was hard for me to be in the camp, I always... Oh, I wanted it so much. And how can I do it? I always strived for something, for something I had planned. When I lived in Russia, I always looked at what I failed to do, what I wanted to do at that time.
Adam
This is very interesting, because I meet people who have lost their goals, yes, which they could have achieved there, but as if they did not achieve them, but they do not see how it is possible to achieve it here. And you are giving such interesting advice now, that you should try to find opportunities. To achieve them here.
Harlem
Yes, to achieve here, to believe in yourself, that you can do it. Even in another country. And having the understanding of others that you dream of starting a family tomorrow, having a husband and children, that is, you can go for it, strive, no one will say that you are sick, or that it is forbidden here, that is, you can do it.
Adam
Harlem, you just said that we shouldn't give up on our goals here, but what goals are you already setting for yourself?
Harlem
I set goals for myself so that in the future the guys who come here do not go through the same path of integration as hard as I did when I came here, when Stas came here or Oleg, for example. I mean, in 2016-2017 it was very difficult, there were very few of our people, and the first goal for me and for all of us is to make a person be able to adapt, accept themselves, go out into society, know themselves, reveal themselves. So there are many, not to say that there is one goal, but there is such an expanded one. That is one of such common goals. Another personal goal is to have a relationship, because I lost a relationship a year and a half ago because I did not know how or, most likely, we did not know how to build up a relationship. Also, having no experience, it was very difficult for me. I am a person who is used to living with a large family, and living alone can be difficult at times. I don’t mean, work-related communication or that loneliness is physically difficult, but it can be mentally difficult.
As
Here is my question. What organizations have existed since 2018?
Harlem
In general, the organization was formed in 2017, Oleg was one of the Russian-speaking volunteers. Galya helped us a lot, her husband, Tolik, Max, Daniel, Koz. A lot of people helped. And we somehow didn’t even know what we were going to organize. I met my friends, I talked to my friend, Galya. She said that there is no organization or community for Russian-speaking people, for the LGBT community, that helps here. And from that day on we decided that yes, indeed, there is no such thing. We need to register and create an organization, without having experience, without having any support. Someone wrote in Russian, someone translated into English, when we were drawing up the organization’s charter. And I even have another dream, so that those people who are involved in the formation of the organization for the Russian-speaking community, so that they somehow express their opinion, how it happened, the history, so people could see it. Many people ask what the idea was, why it was done. There was no specific idea. It all came from the requests of people, refugees who arrived. Someone needed clothes, shoes. Then we asked our friends who can give that. Someone can give a jacket, someone else can give something else. We bring it. We collected it bit by bit.
As
I'll ask a specific question. Over the years, what do you consider to be the main achievements of the LGBT World Beside organization? At least five, what you can name.
Harlem
The first thing is that we can gather here, organize meetings, talk with each other and share our problems. This is a great merit of our community and organization. When people came 5-6 years ago, they didn't even know each other, who was in what camp. Now we have a connection, we have monthly events, practically, where Russian-speaking communities can gather, guys from the camp can come, share their experiences, get advice. That is the first thing, actually. Secondly, a person, an employee of the organization, can contact us to get advice on studying, on integration. We do, we organize online courses of Dutch, English. During the coronavirus in 2020, we organized online courses of Dutch for refugees who were in camps. That was also a very good step. Thirdly, we do research on the camps, identify what problems we face, and help. We work with other large human rights organizations, for example, with Amnesty International, where we are now located.
Adam
Everyone knows what Amnesty International is. It is an international organization that fights for human rights, rights that are violated all over the world. That is why it is international. And it is a great honor that we are recording here, we are discussing human rights. I am very happy about that.
Harlem
And this year, the organization's achievement is that we have the right to receive humanitarian visas for human rights defenders and LGBTQ+ in Russia, to receive humanitarian visas to Belgium. We made reports on the situation in Russia, to the UN. We made a report on the latest laws that were passed in Russia and what they led to. You can even look at it on the website.
As
And purely theoretically, these are such reports, they help refugees from Russia get a residence permit faster.
Harlem
It is not that it is fast, but that it allows the migration services to understand what is happening in Russia. Such reports are needed, and even often, I think that it is necessary to do research and make reports, because many migration services take information from these reports. When a person comes to a European country, he will not need to explain in full what is happening in Russia. That is, the immigration services already know what is happening in this country. The report has such power.
I would also like to tell you that since last year we have started working with large companies like ASML, Ben & Jerry, so that people can integrate faster and find a job. And this year we had a meeting with one of the largest companies ASML. And after this meeting, companies began to contact us, they can teach refugees IT programs for free for 3 to 6 months. It literally happened a couple of weeks, now we are going to hold our first meeting with that company. From the outside, it may seem little work, small things, but in fact, a lot of work has been done behind the screen, and so that a refugee can go to study for free and then become an intern. That is, I think that this is really cool.
Adam
Tell us about your first pride.
Harlem
It was 2017. On the morning of June 4th or 5th, I don't remember what day, when I got to this wonderful event, I was shocked that the people who were there, they were happy, they could be together with each other, they didn't have to look around with worry, they felt supported. That was the first impression of the pride. For me, it was certainly wow.
Adam
I want to ask, how do Europeans feel about Pride?
Harlem
It's a usual holiday, like King's Day, I guess.
As
Our wonderful conversation is coming to an end. I want to thank Harlem for being open with us, telling us his story and showing what LGBT World Beside really does.
Adam
You opened up so much, thank you!
Harlem
You're always welcome. I also wanted to thank those people who support us all, who contributed to the organization and development of our community. And today we are in the office, in the office of Amnesty International in Amsterdam, thanks to many people, actually. I think we might write down some stories of the people who were involved in starting our community in the future.
As
Yes, thank you.
Harlem
Thank you.
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