Adam: Hello! Dear listeners, today Adam is with you, and we welcome
the unique Stas Vokman!) Please tell us what you are doing now, what
do you live?
Stas: Let's start with the fact that it is very important, probably, to talk about the work that
lasted for several months. The company "Media Loft" contacted us at the LGBT organization
World Beside with a proposal to make a joint documentary about Russian speakers
transpersons who live in camps (refugee camps), we are going to prepare it
for Pride in Amsterdam.
Adam: So, is this a story about real people or is it like some kind of staged story?
Stas: This is a documentary, there is nothing made up there. And, unfortunately, the lives of those
heroes who are in our film, she is much, much more terrible, much more unique than
could be imagined and made into a feature film. And unfortunately, what I
I heard that a lot will have to be cut out, of course, because there is crime there, there is
and prosecution of law enforcement agencies, and connections with gangs that
now in Ukraine. These are quite criminal stories. So, unfortunately, I heard
it's a lot of pain and it was quite hard.
Adam: Tell us how the idea for this film “Invisibale people” came about?
Stas: In general, we need to tell the backstory that the director of the film is Nikita Loic -
chief director of the channel “And Talk?”, and director of a series about the queer community in
The Netherlands, this is his third work on this topic. I was very proud because they
turned to me, they found me. Last year in refugee camps in the Netherlands
There was a series of suicides of Russian-speaking queer refugees. Filmmakers company
“Media Loft” and Nikita Loic wanted to voice this problem.
Adam: You said this series of suicides happened last year?
Stas: Only last year we, indeed, our Russian-speaking community
I was faced with just such a series of suicides...
Adam: Who are you playing in the project?
Stas: I act there as a producer.
Adam: What are your main goals with this film?
Stas: Publicity of what is happening in the camps, publicity of the problems faced by trans people
community in the Netherlands. It just seems like the Netherlands is so beautiful
a country in which there is a place for trans people, but in fact there are still many in this part
problems.
Adam: Why did this become so important to you?
Stas: Oh, well, look, actually..
Adam: Maybe there are some relatives, or some stories, because usually people
they do this with such dedication as you have.. It’s not just that usual.
Stas: Yes, this is probably also a personal story, because it is here, in the Netherlands, that I
I have made several people whom I can call friends. And these are transpeople. This is generally-
this is a new experience for me, and it’s as if we lived in Russia and had no idea that there were such
People. It was somewhere far away, somewhere in films and somewhere not about our lives at all, but here
you see these people, yes, that is. as if you have a desire to also communicate with them, also
help them.
Adam: Indeed, these people are among us and in Russia. I wouldn't even think if someone...
I didn’t listen to our first episode, listen, we have an interview with Olya, and I was surprised
her sincerity, and never in my life would I have thought that this was a transperson.
Stas: What needs to be said here is that the transpersons who are here, not only do they
having to go through what we're going through - people moving, problems
integration, immigration problems in general, because you... you just every day
you are faced with a bunch of information that you don’t even always need. Here
it just falls on you in any form, and you have to be so mobile,
how much to screw in each time, and they have all these processes, they are also burdened by the fact that
what they go through through self-awareness, through self-discovery, through understanding
that they may already be more protected than in Russia, for example, or in any of the former
republics of the Soviet Union. For many this is difficult, which is why it is important to understand that
Those deaths that happened last year were not accidental. This is this big, big
system problem.
Adam: Is there a special story to pique the interest of our listeners?
Stas: One of the heroines told... She never told me about this, i.e. oh there she is
began to remember such things, began to unpack from her subconscious... she
said that she was admitted to a mental hospital. She saw people passing
through this torture with electricity. What we thought was already prohibited
Ministry of Health...
Adam: Or just in movies.
Stas: Or only in films about some kind of horror. And this is what she describes, what...
then crime stories, and one of the heroines from a locality in Ukraine, and
which from time to time switches to one side, then to the other. And this abuse
she just tolerates the system on both sides, and you just kind of... you just don’t even
Can you imagine, what, and what in general remains for these people?
Adam: Very interesting, will this be in the film?
Stas: Yes, it should all be in the film. Plus we have two experts, one of the experts is
Kamil Welling, chief physician of trans united clinic, second expert Valentine – trans girl from
Netherlands. She is a successful journalist, model, DJ.
Adam: Do you think this film will have any impact on people, and if so, how?
Stas: First of all, of course, it’s awareness; after all, any film is about
development of empathy. The main task of the film is to show that this is also a person, that he is nothing
you are no different. Yes, he has characteristics, but he has his own life, and he deserves to be
happy. We still set one of the goals - this is to convey to the Dutch
society is that the trans community in general has a number of problems. And this movie
just reveals it.
Adam: Will it be in English, this movie?
Stas: The film will be in Russian, as a rule, everyone in this film speaks Russian
language, but with English subtitles. Two of the experts speak English and this
There will be subtitles in Russian. In principle, one of these red lines in our
new film that is being prepared - this, of course, is the problem faced
Russian society, and Ukrainian too. This is the Russian invasion of Ukraine and I'm like
a person who for a long time was generally in opposition in principle and never
voted for Putin, and never believed him.. For me it was, well, just, probably,
the last straw, etc. I know Russian history well, because... I basically understood
how will it develop further.. How will the regime transform further, therefore for
me at that moment.. I just made, it seems to me, such a right decision
– left Russia.
Adam: Why did you choose the Netherlands?
Stas: In fact, there wasn’t much to choose from back then. I wanted to go to some
then other countries, but everything was completely bad there. Which were closer to me, let's say, or
more familiar to me.
Adam: Bad, in what way?
Stas: There were a lot of refugees, or there was some kind of really big bureaucracy. Still
the first year of the war.. Yes, the first six months of the war are.. Now we are simply accustomed to the fact that
that there is a war. This is a given that we live with. And then this is the first war in a long time
time in Europe, and European countries, European citizens did not understand at all that
generally happens. And this stream of refugees that poured out of Russia,
Of course, this says a lot.
Adam: How are you feeling here now?
Stas: Let's just say that life turned out to be much more multifaceted in reality, because
I had to reinvent myself in general as a person, and here I started my
psychotherapy. I had to give up some plans for life, some old ones
ambitions, and well, in fact, I really surprised myself, because this is such a thirst, thirst
life and survival, generally inherent in every Russian person. We... I really
In fact, I’ll say this - just without modesty, we are probably the most talented and very
educated group of people in the Netherlands because we have a lot of potential.
Adam: Tell us about your life before the Netherlands. What did you do?
Stas: Actually, I have been living in Moscow for 10 years, the last 10 years. I worked as a photographer
I worked only as a photographer, I also worked in video production, but in general I
everything was fine.
Adam: Have you been involved in any kind of activist activity, like how you started here?
Stas: Firstly, it was not always safe in Russia. Of course, I was in protests. More
right from the very beginning I arrived in 2009, moved to Moscow, and the first “Chistye Prudy”
was already there. Here is the very first historic rally, I watched it, caught it and appreciated it. After
There were already rallies at Sakharov, there were some other interesting things when you just
you see that these are all wonderful people... but it turns out there are many of them, and you are not the only one.
Adam: Were you detained?
Stas: I wasn’t detained, they started detaining me from the moment of the attack
wars.. So, why am I saying all this?
Adam: Well, I’d like to add some spice). That's why I'm asking, it's just in your letter
it was written that “subsequently pursued, the police arrested him after participating
in the protests after Russia's invasion of Ukraine."
Stas: Yes, let me say this, and it will probably be more correct or truthful. My first
detention, it was on February 25 or 24... February 24, 2022, in my opinion.
Adam: Ahh.
Stas: It was the second day of the war, and somehow from that moment such problems began with
police, then there was another detention, it was already... it was already close
Bolshoi Theater, and this was already in early May. There has already been a detention with these
comrades who wear civilian clothes. Yes, I was also surprised that they were like that.))
They just look like rednecks. I thought that they were just walking around, you know, these guys,
who just came for a walk around Moscow, and from somewhere there from Ryazan... And here they are at me
The phone is removed, and I was glad about that! I thought, well, now they will post on the Internet “no
war,” that’s good! (laughs) What turned out to be that they were filming me for their... for
dossier, here.)
Adam: For what? Because you didn't want war?
Stas: For the “No to War” poster, yes.
Adam: Let's go back to the Netherlands.
Stas: Come on)
Adam: What kind of support have you encountered here that has helped you and is still helping you?
Stas: Well, the first thing that needs to be said is that the Dutch themselves as a society
Dutch, it is unusually friendly. Such support as in the Netherlands
I've probably never seen it anywhere. This is how it works for me, this is just my experience. I
extraordinary proud, because I am one of those few people who can directly
boast that I’m always here... it seems like it works like that for me,
when you just get ready that you will always have support, and it’s you just.. well
you walk like that and it’s just for you... Maybe it’s this kind of confidence?))
Adam: Well, you’re also kind of prepossessing yourself – bright eyes..)
Stas: Probably yes, probably yes..)
Adam: Tall...
Stas: Shall we talk about racism?))) About everyday racism. This is support, it was there
There is. I’m really, really, really happy about this, and I meet a lot of people here,
who are themselves refugees of some generation who have moved. I meet people who are
former Dutch colonies, and with them there are no problems at all. It's always
very friendly, and.. In general, it seems to me, even when I communicate with black people
Dutch, I see that they perceive me not as a citizen of Russia
and a subject of Putin, they perceive me first of all as a person. It is dialogue
This is exactly how it is built, because, of course, in the first year of the war it was a bit difficult here. Here
It was with the Dutch that sometimes the Dutch could make some kind of joke... and with the blacks
This has never happened at all.
Adam: That's very interesting... What's working for you now at LGBT World Beside?
Stas: Well, for me, first of all, for me it’s an investment in, first of all, my future.
Because it is very important for every Russian person to understand that no one will do anything for us.
stand here. No one will defend our rights, no one will say that we
discriminated against, and no one will say that we are cool. Everyone has their problems and
other organizations are fighting for themselves, so the most important thing for us to understand now is that we
there's not much here and we should just unite. Work towards a specific goal.
The big, big pain of Russian society is that in principle we never unite,
and did not unite.
Adam: Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to say)
Stas: Yes, well, that is, there are historical prerequisites that began there not yesterday and not
day before yesterday..
Adam: ...and as you say, our problems need to be known.
Stas: It is necessary that we sooner or later... we cannot change anything if we
scattered.
Adam: What advice would you give to people listening? The most important advice is
do not give up. You have arrived, you are already a big winner. According to a small study,
which was carried out quite recently, it turned out that the only feature that
unites all immigrants around the world, this is an increased level of dopamine.
An increased level of dopamine is responsible for adventurism, risk-taking, and increased
dopamine is generally about the joy of life, that’s why we are here, we are already winners. We need
just understand that yes, there is time that is allotted to any immigrant, and then everything will happen
much easier, simpler, a wonderful future awaits us.
Adam: Super) I was truly filled with our meeting.) Thank you for..
Stas: What was) Thank you for coming, that’s it, thank you, thank you for coming.
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