In this final part of the episode, we continue to discuss heteronormativity and the stereotype of the West promoting gay culture with our guest, Anya. Find out more in the episode! In this installment, we learn more about our heroine, how forced migration changes one's environment and worldview. The interviewee will talk about her life in Serbia and share her first impressions of Pride in Belgrade.
Episode Transcript:
Anya (Guest): Absolutely, yes, and the second reason is this. The problem is that the voice was given not to those who are ready to show up, i.e., not just anyone, but to those who are only ready to express hatred.
And when you mentioned language, I recalled another book that is proudly on my reading list, I believe it's by Viktor Klemperer. He analyzed the language of Nazi hatred, yet another regime that, as we know, didn't like LGBTQ+ people and, in fact, started fighting them early on. There were people there too, I don't know what they called them, maybe something like "non-traditional orientation," but they started fighting them among the first. Some, of course, were pardoned for a while, like some friends of the Führer, but in the end, even the biggest friends were killed, as we know. This is what the book is about, I think it's called "The Language of the Third Reich." It's also very interesting to trace how this attitude is imposed through language—an attitude of disrespect, hatred, hostility. As you correctly said, a very hostile language towards certain phenomena, because language essentially shapes the surrounding reality and attitudes towards it.
Dima (Interviewer): Yes, based on this example, let’s give some advice to our listeners together. First: guys, pay attention... We advise both hetero- and homosexual persons, I recommend everyone listen! Please, pay attention to the language you use.
Even if you say it incorrectly, that's not the point. In your language, please include love, understanding, and empathy. This is really, really difficult, but we are sure it is possible. It can be done. This is the first step to understanding how to overcome barriers. Anya, you mentioned three reasons?
Anya: And the third reason, yes. The third reason is directly related to what you just said. The third reason is simple inattention and lack of interest in problems you don’t personally face. And indeed, speaking of what heteronormative, so to speak, people could do? I will join in this formulation. Just start a dialogue, at least from a position of respect, because yes, people fear what they don’t understand. Probably, some people just don't understand how it even works. But if you explain to people, there will be a chance, and this is essentially the plus of sexual education, right? If you just start explaining to people that there are different people, convey to others that this is absolutely normal.
Dima: Continuing this line of thought, another idea came to mind.
I've been talking about this for a long time, often trying to elaborate on this viewpoint: the laws in countries, including the recently introduced similar law on gay propaganda in Georgia, supposedly for the protection of "traditional values," will likely spread to other countries as well. I would even say, in countries and governments (using an inanimate term, not societies), we must understand that this is an artificial institution. The law on gay propaganda in Russia, when it was expanded in 2022, is, in my opinion, aimed precisely at creating this barrier we are talking about now, and it is designed to "protect" hetero people. How do the legislative initiators present this law? They present it as a "protection," so to speak, of the "normal" from the "abnormal." Instead of allowing hetero people to support their LGBTQ+ fellow citizens, to give them the opportunity to speak up and say: "Yes, I'm hetero, but I support them. I have extensive experience, and just yesterday, my classmate was..."
These aspects are blocked by this law. The law pertains to LGBTQ+, but, again, it affects everyone. This brings us back to the point that the support of heteronormative people is so crucial! Not just in Russia.
Anya: Yes, and breaking down this barrier is probably the first and one of the most important tasks. Simply giving people who might not understand something or are afraid, as you rightly said, a chance to see for themselves, as Ekaterina Mikhailovna famously says.
Show that there are no differences; this is indeed an imagined barrier that, in my deep conviction, is constructed only because it is very convenient for some states to have soldiers and taxpayers born.
Honestly, I don’t remember attending any special events related to LGBTQ+ persons or anything like that. Maybe there were such events, but I don't recall, so I apologize again)), but I...
Dima: There’s nothing to apologize for, actually. Firstly, this is an example of how the LGBTQ+ community in Russia exists as a closed society. Understandably, this can be justified due to safety concerns. There are many volunteers in Russia, including hetero people, who have helped and so on.
But here, we might consider that at some point, it was necessary to expand the activities and opportunities beyond the problem within the community, to include hetero people more.
To work more in this area, not creating something self-contained, homogeneous. On the contrary, inclusiveness, meaning, we are all together. Like, come to our event. The last time I tried to do this was when I tried to attend "Artdocfest" with my friends, where we tried to see a film about an MMA fighter who is gay, but all the tickets were sold out...
Anya: What was it about, sorry?
Dima: The film was about an MMA fighter who was gay, and it was a documentary. It really struck me that at the "Karo-film" on Arbat... Do you remember that building?
Anya: Oh, I do remember that building, yes.
Dima: They bought up all the tickets specifically so people couldn't come and watch the film.
Anya: That's terrible, yeah, we know how that goes.
Dima: So, you understand what I mean? Our listeners probably do too. These indirect, hidden conflicts, in quotes. Perhaps not even very hidden from the world. In short, speaking of Russia, we couldn’t attend the screening. Let's talk about experiences where it was possible.
Anya: Yes, and honestly, I must confess to you, myself, and our listeners that maybe I was in that third camp. I think I was more concerned with human rights issues, with the political situation, rather than this aspect. Reflecting on my life and behavior, I was interested in corruption, lawlessness, and human rights violations in law enforcement and the courts. I don’t think I was as involved and concerned with the rights of LGBTQ+ people, unfortunately, because when I lived in Russia, I constantly felt that my rights were being severely violated. I was very focused on that. But after the war started, it wasn’t so much that my focus shifted, but rather this issue entered my field of vision. I saw that the Leviathan I had been focused on had turned an even more terrible side towards me, one I hadn’t noticed for a long time, like many people. The extreme discrimination and threats to the lives and health of LGBTQ+ people became more apparent to me, and I started to pay more attention to their rights.
Dima: That's an interesting thought. Thank you very much for sharing. This is, as I understand it, a question of "from the general to the specific"?
Anya: Mm-hmm.
Dima: Many within our community also say that LGBTQ+ issues are often ignored because there are broader issues that need to be solved first. There’s another perspective that everything needs to be addressed together, in a unified effort. Lately, I've been hearing a narrative within the LGBTQ+ community that hetero people from Russia or the CIS or other countries are also struggling, and after 2022, many began to realize this. Well, "many" in quotes (not everyone has realized yet, let's start with that).
This is an example of understanding that everyone is suffering, so we need to help everyone now. This ties into overcoming barriers; we see the problems hetero people are facing, with millions affected now. Our eternal problems remain, but that doesn't mean that prioritizing problems should be above love for the individual.
The idea of this podcast is to show that everyone is having a hard time, so let’s do something about it. The idea is that we are all people, and together we can find a common approach to the problem and the solution accordingly.
Anya: Yes, you’re touching on a terrible problem, you know, it’s like they say, "throw it on the fan," right?
Dima: Oh, yes, you know me.)
Anya: No, I’m going to throw it too.) Just a disclaimer that I’m about to throw it out there). In Serbia, I’m part of the Russian Democratic Society, which is an informal anti-war association of Russians. One day, a male colleague told me that women's issues are somewhat secondary right now. We have one big problem with a certain person, which we all understand.
Dima: I understand what you're saying.
Anya: Yes, it seems like if we solve this one big problem, the others will somehow resolve themselves, or we can then think about addressing them. As a woman, I understand this, too. Sorry for a bit of self-pity here, but being part of a sometimes discriminated category, I also faced issues of violence. Reflecting on this, I realize how LGBTQ+ people feel when told, "We'll deal with our issues first, and then we'll get to you." The problem is, there's a temptation to solve one's own problems. Unfortunately, many people are like that—they solve their problem, so they don’t have to go to the army, for example, and never get around to other people's issues because they already feel comfortable.
Dima: This can be likened to the airplane rule: you have to put on your own oxygen mask before helping a child. We get stuck in this loop, putting on our own mask. What about the child?
Anya: Haha, and the child is sitting there saying, "Mom, is it okay if I get a mask too, please?"
Dima: Ideally, yes, but we leave the child hoping they will grow up and reach for the mask on their own.
Anya: Develop gills, right?
Dima: Yes, and then the child grows up and finally, beaten down and barely hanging on, reaches for the mask. Do you think they will put the mask on their own child?
Anya: Absolutely not!
Anya: In such cases, I realize I also got stuck in this loop of solving my problems without solving the child's problems. The child grows up and becomes part of society. As you rightly said, who grows up? A person who is traumatized and embittered.
They might even become disabled in some way because, in Russia, there's a lack of understanding that depression can disable a person. In the so-called "West" (in our false dichotomy), people can receive disability benefits for mental health reasons because they can’t work, which is very serious. So, if we want to live in a healthy society, our goal must be to care for the well-being of every member, absolutely everyone.
I would love for this idea to reach all opposition-minded Russians, especially those who can make decisions and have some influence. We need to stop, as you said, poking at each other and gloating over issues. This is part of my life in Russia and my surroundings. I didn't have a specific community. Reflecting on 2022, it turned out my surroundings weren't the worst they could be. I send greetings and respect to everyone! The worst I encountered was indifference. The war, however, is the pinnacle of dehumanization and evil, with all masks torn off and barriers overcome that shouldn't be.
Dima: That's a separate question. We will get back to which barriers need to be overcome and which don't.
Anya: I can't say anything specific about my surroundings except that my bubble turned out to be quite decent. Regarding my period of emigration and life in Serbia, recently in May, we had a documentary film festival "Beldocs," and they brought the film "Kundun."
Anya: If I remember correctly, it was about Gena Marvin. Honestly, it was fascinating because I hadn’t heard of her before. Later, I discussed this with local Russian-speaking acquaintances, and some had heard of Gena Marvin—an intriguing artist outside traditional boundaries and contexts. As far as I know, she now prefers "she" pronouns, and I try to respect that. So, Gena is an artist and also an activist—political, even military. Perhaps some listeners remember the impressive performance where she wrapped herself in white, red, and blue tape outside the State Duma. It was a fantastic film.
If you get a chance to watch "Kuinton" about Gena Marvin, I highly recommend it. One reason I went to this film was to support the creators by buying a ticket. It also helped increase my awareness of LGBTQ+ people and their visibility. The more people attend such films, the more will be produced. I know that soon our wonderful local democratic society plans to show another film, though I can’t remember the title, in collaboration with the local LGBT center. My community here in Serbia is filled with many LGBTQ+ friendly people. I rarely hear homophobic jokes anymore. Instead, there's more acceptance and understanding of the issues people face. So, my life is now much more enriched in this aspect.
As for Pride events, I can’t say I’ve actively attended any. I accidentally found myself at one in Belgrade. It was interesting because I realized that in Moscow, unfortunately, I couldn’t see people freely attending Pride. The police were there to protect the Pride attendees from potential harm, which I appreciated. The police, at least from what I saw, showed no aggression or made any comments. Although I understand that many local police might still hold "traditional values," as these are strong in Serbia too.
I think many people are aware of this. When I put two and two together, I realized that the individuals I saw protesting against Pride were likely the same ones carrying icons and flags. But there were few who opposed openly.
Regarding the LGBTQ+ community here in Serbia, I happened upon an exhibition by chance. It showcased the community’s fight for rights, including photos from various Prides. Not all were peaceful, with the LGBTQ+ community facing physical violence from authorities. Last year was peaceful, but it hasn’t always been that way. Therefore, I can’t say people here feel entirely safe and comfortable. The community is in a difficult position because, formally, they aren’t oppressed. You have Pride, and it’s even protected. But societal intolerance is a significant issue.
I’ve heard that it’s harder for Serbian LGBTQ+ individuals to seek asylum because their life here is challenging, especially for openly living gays and lesbians. I attended a lecture on human rights protection mechanisms, where a listener shared an issue I wasn’t aware of. He and his friends volunteered, helping teenagers forced into prostitution due to their "non-traditional orientation" not being supported in Russia. This was shocking and horrifying, and the person sharing this noted that it’s a largely unspoken issue. There’s hardly any journalistic work on it. There was an attempt at a video format, but it was strange and one-sided. I felt a strong desire to write an article or create journalistic material about this because it’s a hidden, significant issue.
Dima: Anya, what advice would you give to straight people to support LGBTQ+ individuals? And what advice would you give to LGBTQ+ people to support straight individuals in the current situation?
Anya: Oh, the land of advice, right?
Dima: Yes, no one is asking for advice. Don’t trust, don’t fear, don’t ask, don’t worry (c). But let’s try to give some advice anyway.
Anya: First of all, as someone who has started paying more attention to the problems and difficulties faced by LGBTQ+ people, I would advise straight people to somehow let their surroundings know that they are LGBTQ+ friendly. In my understanding, the problem is that many people don't even have the opportunity to come out. I’m sure just having the chance to be open with someone is already a kind of relief.
Dima: Anya, thank you so much.
Disclaimer: "The podcast is the intellectual property of LGBT World Beside. All rights reserved. Views and opinions expressed in episodes featured on the podcast and website belong solely to the guests. This podcast is supported by the European Cultural Foundation and the European Union."
コメント