Adam
Hi! This is the podcast "Overcoming Barriers." Here, we share stories about how LGBTQ+ individuals interact with society at large, with people of different identities and genders, and how to ensure that diverse people can find common ground in any circumstances. My name is Adam, and we're very happy to talk today with Dakota. Hello!
Dakota
Hello!
Adam
I'll briefly introduce you to our listeners. Dakota is an artist originally from Kazakhstan. She has been living in the Netherlands since she was 12, identifies as a transgender person, and is currently undergoing hormone transition. Is that correct?
Dakota
Yes.
Adam
Today, we want to discuss how societies in Kazakhstan and the Netherlands differ in terms of transgender people acceptance and how art helps navigate these trying times. But let's take it step by step. Could you please tell us how you came to the Netherlands?
Dakota
When I was 12 years old, my father was already living in the Netherlands. He is Afghan. He moved to the Netherlands because of the war, and then one day he was in Kazakhstan, saw my mother when she was 16, and he was probably 30. Then they had me. He lived in the Netherlands, we lived in Kazakhstan, and then they decided to move to the Netherlands. That's how I came here.
Adam
With your family?
Dakota
Yes, with my mother. My father was already living here, so I moved here with my mother. She is Russian.
Adam
As we mentioned in previous episodes, the lack of acceptance of LGBTQ+ individuals and various types of phobias often arise, among other things, due to the lack of information. For those who want to understand better, let's try to briefly explain what a transgender person is and what the steps of transition are.
Dakota
For trans individuals, I would say there are three main steps. Officially, there are two steps. The first step is when you realize yourself or understand that you are trans. This is about self-acceptance in your own world. After that, you likely go through a social transition. This is when you tell your family or close people that you are a trans person. For example, you change your name or pronouns. And after that, you likely go through a physical transition. This involves hormones and possibly surgeries.
Adam
That’s the third step.
Dakota
Yes, that’s the third step, meaning hormones and surgeries, but only if you want to. In my view, there are three stages.
Adam
What do you know about the treating of trans people in Kazakhstan?
Dakota
Very little. What I know is mostly from my childhood. Trans people were talked about as if they were demons who didn’t know what they wanted and wanted to kill or molest children. There was almost no information. Sometimes terms like transvestites would come up. There is a difference between transgender people and transvestites. Transvestites are people who simply like to dress in clothing typically associated with the opposite gender. They have a different approach to this than transgender people. Because of this, whenever there was talk about transgender people in the news or everyday conversations, they were compared to transvestites, like with Verka Serduchka, saying they are just actors and it's all fake. There was little information, but mostly people talked about gays and lesbians. The way they talked about them was nightmarish too. This is all from my childhood.
Adam
Is this what you remember from your childhood?
Dakota
Yes, I remember all this from my childhood because I recall when I was about 7 or 8 years old. I grew up in a very religious environment. I had always been Muslim, then my mom converted me into Christian. I went to a Christian school, and there was a girl with red nails. She had painted them so beautifully. The next day, I decided to paint mine too. But when I came to school, the teachers spoke to me very aggressively and even summoned my parents to the school. I realized then that behaving outside the binary system was not accepted and could be dangerous for oneself. In these moments, you understand that some things are bad and some things are good. At that moment, I realized that if I, as a boy at that time, did something feminine, it was considered very bad. Or if a girl did something masculine, that was also very bad. Gradually, layer by layer, you understand that all this is bad. Gender stereotypes are enforced, and everything is in that spirit. I started to understand this gradually, even from the news or when they mocked foreign cartoons if they featured lesbians, gays, or non-gendered characters You just understood that this was bad, and you thought negatively about these people, about us.
Adam
Do you keep track of how things are there now? Has the attitude changed at all? Do you know anything about that?
Dakota
I recently asked my mother how things are in Kazakhstan regarding all this because sometimes we discuss the topic of what it would have been like if we had stayed there. She says there were gays and lesbians; all of that existed, but they were very closeted, meaning it was all hidden in clubs. She doesn’t know much more because it has been over ten years since we left. A few months ago, I watched an interview from Kazakhstan. They interviewed a couple of trans girls about how they live and how things are for them. It’s a nightmare because they still have the same old system regarding transgender people. They force people to undergo a physical transition, such as surgery or hormone therapy, even though some boys and girls are allergic to hormones.
Adam
Do they force them to undergo something?
Dakota
If you want, I can explain the protocol. In the Netherlands, this was the case until 2014. The Netherlands was the first country in the early 2000s, I believe, to establish a gender protocol that outlined how to identify who is transgender and how to help them. It described, for example, starting with the social transition, then hormone therapy, and finally surgery. You had to go through all these steps, meaning you were forced to do everything, even if some people couldn’t afford it. And in Kazakhstan, as far as I understand, they still have the old system. If you want to receive hormones, you get a certificate stating you are mentally ill. You cannot change your passport or ID card. You can only change these documents if you undergo surgery. As I understand, the surgery can only be done in Almaty or other countries, which costs a fortune. Most trans people find it hard to get a job, even here in the Netherlands, so in Kazakhstan, it’s even worse. There are almost no job opportunities except for sex work. Most girls work as sex workers to earn money. However, it's impossible to save enough for surgery with such small earnings because there’s no insurance or anything like that. In the Netherlands, the situation for sex workers is somewhat better, but in Kazakhstan, it’s a nightmare.
Adam
What did you mean by saying they force people?
Dakota
The protocol in Kazakhstan is still old. If you want to make an official transition, like in your passport and all that, you must take hormones and have surgery, such as vaginoplasty and FFS (Facial Feminization Surgery). If you don’t do this, you can’t get your documents changed. This leads to many conflicts. For example, a girl might be stopped by the police, and her ID says Mikhail, even though her name is Karina. It creates awkward situations, like not being able to get married. It’s a nightmare.
Adam
Is it possible to stay without transitioning fully?
Dakota
Yes and no. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Adam
Who decides this?
Dakota
Scientific researchers, or similar professionals, make the diagnosis. However, in my experience, when I talked to one of these experts, he didn’t know the basic concepts of gender. He was unaware that gender is a construct, what the difference is between physical gender and identity. He asked very stereotypical questions, like whether I wore skirts. Yes, I do, but that doesn’t determine if you’re a woman or a man because many girls wear pants, or whether you wear makeup, or what your sexual position in bed is—if you’re dominant, then you’re a man, not a transgender person. These were very stereotypical and unpleasant questions. This person essentially gives you a green or red light to start things like hormone therapy.
Adam
And what other treatings of trans people have you encountered in the Netherlands?
Dakota
Unfortunately, trans people are still sometimes murdered. Last year, a girl was killed in Utrecht. At the beginning of the year, another girl was also killed.
Adam
Utrecht is one of the most tolerant cities in the Netherlands.
Dakota
Yes, indeed. She was killed. Her name was Uzge, and she was Turkish. So, these things do happen. People can be very aggressive. Sometimes, but it’s rare. Most people just stay silent and watch. Generally, society is accepting. From my experience, it’s normal.
Adam
Is there any information about the causes or investigations into these acts of violence?
Dakota
It’s based on transphobia. That’s why I say she was killed; she didn’t die from a heart attack or something like that. She was just beaten, stabbed, or shot. It was purely due to transphobia. As for the official process, it’s quite difficult. It’s a very long, drawn-out process to get everything documented. It took me about five years. I started trying to address this at 15, now I’m almost 26. So, it’s a lengthy process. You have to talk a lot and prove why you’re transgender. It’s been very hard, and it continues to be difficult. Some girls are still on waiting lists for assistance. These waiting lists can take years.
Adam
If we compare transphobia in Kazakhstan and the Netherlands, how similar is it?
Dakota
It’s hard for me to say because I have limited experience being a trans person in Kazakhstan. But sometimes, when I talk to relatives or old friends, they are very neutral but more passive. Like, “Yeah, that’s cool, but it’s better if you disappear.” That’s my experience.
Adam
Have you encountered transphobia here?
Dakota
There were many instances. One of the most horrifying experiences I had was when I was working. I was working as a cashier, and I had a side job as an assistant to help close the store and such. After work, I went outside to close the store with some other girls. A man approached us and asked what we were doing. I said we were closing the store. Then he asked, "Who are these people?" I said, "I work here." And he said, "No, no, no, no, you’re spreading HIV. You’re a transvestite, right? Trying to harm children here?" I was like, "What?" He started to become very aggressive towards me. I was in shock. Later, the girl and I ran into the store and hid in the Albert Heijn because we were really scared. He was about two meters tall, a bit muscular. I’m strong and can stand up for myself, but...
Adam
Was he drunk or not?
Dakota
No, he wasn’t drunk. That’s the thing. From what I saw, he wasn’t on any substances. He was just... a man. I remember him because he used to come to the store often. He would sometimes look at me strangely, but I just continued with my work. He was waiting for me. It was really frightening. I called the police. Unfortunately, the police didn’t help at all. Fortunately, in the Netherlands, there is also an organization called "Pink Police." If you are LGBTQ+, you can call them directly, and they understand the issue and help you right away. The regular police told me that if I wasn’t physically harmed, everything was fine. I told them I was scared to go back to work, what if he came with a knife and attacked me? They didn’t help with that. My employer also didn’t help. He even said it was my fault because I should have just walked away instead of talking to him. I was like, "What do you mean? A person is attacking me and calling me names, and I should just stay silent and leave?" He said yes, and they didn’t help. A few weeks later, he even came with dogs, but I quickly left on my bike. It was scary, and I haven’t seen him since.There are a couple of other situations. For example, when I went to a club to dance with some girls. The bouncer was checking if you were 18 or not. When he started checking me, I told him I was transgender. He loudly announced it to everyone. He said, "Are you a man on your ID?" He used my old name. I said, "Just let me into the club; I want to dance with my friends. Why are you ruining my evening?" So sometimes these situations happen. It happens occasionally when you’re buying something somewhere too.
Adam
What helps you cope with this?
Dakota
To deal with all of it?
Adam
Yes. Even with the situation at the store that you mentioned . The Pink Police, you said?
Dakota
Yes, the Pink Police. The Pink Police are also police officers, but it’s a separate unit where only lesbians, gays, and transgender people work. If you’re LGBTQ+ in the Netherlands, it’s best to call the Pink Police right away and explain the situation. They will understand immediately because they are part of the LGBTQ+ community themselves. They will recognize that it’s transphobia and will help you right away. They take your problem more seriously than the regular police. If you have any issues, the Pink Police will always assist you. In the Netherlands, if a building or store has a sticker with a rainbow flag, it means that place is LGBTQ+ friendly. You can go there if something happens, and you’ll be safe. For example, in Den Bosch, where I’m from, there’s a flower shop near the station with an LGBTQ+ sticker. The owner of the shop is also from the LGBTQ+ community. I can go there anytime if something happens, and they will help me. They provide a separate room for privacy and support. It’s great that there are places like this where you can go if something goes wrong. But the fact that these places exist is also sad because, regardless of being LGBTQ+ or not, everyone should be safe in their country. While having these resources is good, it’s still a terrible situation.
Adam
What are the current options for transitioning in the Netherlands?
Dakota
For example, until 2014, they required people to undergo bottom surgery. For instance, if you were a trans man, you had to have your uterus removed. Or if you were a trans woman, you had to have vaginoplasty. Some trans people, however, don't experience dysphoria regarding their genitalia. They were still required to undergo these procedures, even if they wanted to have children. For instance, a trans man who wanted to become pregnant or a trans woman who wanted to preserve her sperm found that this was nearly impossible.
Now, things have changed. You can choose what you want to do. It’s still a lengthy process with a lot of psychological evaluation. For every step you take towards things like hormones or surgeries, you have to be with a psychologist for at least a year. For example, before starting hormones, you need to be with a psychologist for a year, then you start hormones, and you need to be on hormones for at least a year before you can even be referred for surgeries. And before that, you need to spend another year with a psychologist discussing these steps. It takes a lot of time, but it has improved significantly, and insurance helps a lot. Though insurance is very expensive, it covers everything, thankfully. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to afford any of it.
Adam
Yes, as you mentioned, in Kazakhstan, you have to save money for surgeries yourself.
Dakota
Yes, I heard from some girls in an interview that they just pay out of their own pockets, but it’s incredibly expensive. Plus, hormones aren’t regulated, so there’s a risk of buying from black markets where drugs could be tampered with. There have been cases where trans people ordered hormones online not from official sites, and they ended up with poison, LSD, or some very strong drugs mixed in. In Kazakhstan, everything is bought underground. There’s no quality control, so there’s no way to know if the hormones are good or not. Here we have supervision, they check which hormones work well for my body. Different forms and dosages are available. Some girls don’t know they need to have a minimum or maximum dose. Sometimes they take, for example, five pills a day, which is dangerous. I’ve seen some girls using hormone creams and taking three pills a day, and it’s like... risking a heart attack. But they just don’t have the information because there aren’t good doctors available. I’ve learned everything on my own from what I’ve seen and heard.
Adam
Before the recording, you mentioned that your mom accepted you, but it was more difficult with your dad. Can you tell me about that?
Dakota
When I was 18 or 19, I came out, and at first, my parents didn't accept me. My father even said that if he saw me, he would kill me. My mom only accepted me recently, probably about a year ago when I was 24 or 25. And it was only because we started talking about what I was doing. At that time, I was attending an art school. I wrote a report, an art report about my research. I wrote it in the form of a letter to my pre-transition self. So, I addressed it to him, using my old name, and talked about my childhood, how we lived together. Because when I was a boy, I understood that I wasn’t really a boy, but I tried to play that role, which didn’t work out. In my mind, it sometimes felt like a different person, some role I was constantly playing. I wrote this letter in that context, and then my mom read it. I translated it into Russian for her, and she cried. It made her understand me better at that moment. She understood why and how, because it wasn’t just a conversation, she really got it. It was a long process, but now, for example, she never uses my old name or incorrect pronouns. We have a good relationship now, but it was a long, long journey.
Adam
And with your dad?
Dakota
I haven’t had any contact with him since I was eighteen. He kicked me out of the house. Well, not exactly kicked out—I ran away. He said that if he saw me again, I shouldn’t come near him. He doesn’t even know that I’m transgender. He thinks I was a gay at that time. And he started thinking that because I played the role of being a boy, a heterosexual, and had a girlfriend, and all that. But one day… I used to love pins. I had one pin among all of them that was a pink flamingo. I remember coming home, he looked at me, and I said we would have a conversation that evening. We sat in the evening, he turned off all the lights, he was in one corner, and I was in the other. He asked, “What’s that pin you’re wearing?” I had a bunch of pins, which one do you mean? He said, “The pink one.” It was just a flamingo, it was pink, I just liked the pin. “Pink is for gays.” And then he started lecturing me. He said that if it continued, there would be physical consequences for me, if you could say that. At that time, I realized that I needed to run. I turned 18, so I could. I just ran to my best friend’s place. He was a trans man. And we lived like that. For an 18-year-old girl, it was a nightmarish experience. But it’s in the past. What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, right?
Adam
Do you see a positive transformation in your mom's acceptance of you?
Dakota
It’s positive what’s happening now with me and my relationship with my mother, because our contact with each other has become much better than even before the transition, and we communicate on a higher level now. Maybe it’s because I’ve grown older, because I’ve accepted myself, and she sees that I’m thriving, that everything is going well in my life now. She also understands me in that. Our contact is just much better; we understand each other on a different level now because of it.
Adam
What would you generally advise parents who are facing something like this, and what could help them?
Dakota
Maybe the first piece of advice would be to give it time, don’t jump to conclusions right away. Parents should take a day, a week, or a month for themselves to sit with their thoughts, try to find someone they can talk to about it, because it’s already hard for the child. Transitioning, accepting that you’re not a man but a woman, or you’re a man and not a woman, is a huge emotional leap for the child. But parents also need to think about their own feelings, how they’re processing everything. They need to take time for themselves, not make immediate judgments. Don’t argue or fight; just sit with it. Find information. There’s a lot of information online, good resources where people discuss it. Try to find other parents with transgender children and talk to them. What has their experience been like? And just love your child. Coming out isn’t just a whim. It’s not just something you decide to do and transition on a whim. It’s a very difficult step. So, that’s probably what I would advise—just take time and talk. Just talk.
Adam
You received an education in art. What topics interest you now as an artist and writer?
Dakota
I explore themes of gender, sexuality, religion, science, and culture. In my art, I combine all these themes. I see myself more as an alchemist than an artist because I delve into culture, gender, and science. For example, in my latest project, I investigated the science of hormones, how they work in the body. I got some information from the university in Nijmegen and spoke with a professor of chemistry and biology. He explained how testosterone works, how it converts into estradiol, and then into estrogen. It was really fascinating. I made a piece of work out of it. In some other works, I explored culture more because I am Kazakh, Russian, Afghan, and Dutch. These are the four cultures that I mix and try to understand because in the Netherlands I’m not fully Russian, Dutch, Afghan, or Kazakh, and at the same time, in Kazakhstan, I don’t fully fit in either. So, I’m in this gray middle where there are very few people like me, and you feel very lonely. At the same time, you try to find your anchor to feel less alone. This is very important for people. I explore that. And at the same time, I started investigating the system we live in now—the binary system where you are either a boy or a girl.
Adam
There seems to be a lot of freedom in that, right?
Dakota
Yes, being an artist is cool because you have a lot of freedom. You can explore and do whatever you want. Only sometimes you lack money and time.
Adam
Does art help you get through difficult moments in life? Do you use it as art therapy?
Dakota
Yes, definitely. It is art therapy for sure. Because some situations...
Adam
Can you give an example, maybe you remember one?
Dakota
Yes. For example, I sometimes have big problems, a lot of dysphoria about not being able to get pregnant. It’s a very difficult topic for me sometimes because you see other girls who can, and you can’t, and it’s very... it’s hard to accept for yourself. I made performances and works on this theme where I bound a huge body with which I danced, lay down, trying to accept what I don’t have. To accept the fact that this fact exists. When I made this work, some women came who also couldn’t get pregnant, and they weren’t even trans people, and they cried. It was very touching. To understand that your problems are not only yours but also belong to other people. Maybe we have different experiences as to why this problem arose. But there are problems, and in that sense, we understand each other. So, it was very, very cool when I did it. There are other works where I try to find some themes in my experience that annoy me or are difficult. What is good and gives me euphoria, I try to do that and find contact with other people so they can also understand me. We try to connect with each other through these red threads. Even if you’re not an artist and you’re stuck in something, sitting and not knowing what to do, just write or draw or make music. I don’t know, do whatever you want, but something creative—it really helps to get through it all.
Adam
There’s a saying: “In love and war, all is fair.” Can art be considered one of the languages that can reach those who might not hear you in another language?
Dakota
Yes, art is... I remember when I studied art. It was Lenin or Stalin who said, when cinema first came out, how it works. He said it was a weapon that could be used. I read that somewhere, as I recall. I think about it sometimes because what I do, my art, can be called activist. I’m an activist, and I try to change something or introduce a topic. But that’s not my approach; I don’t want to do that. But other people might see it that way. And at the same time, art can be used as a weapon to introduce certain topics. What I want to say is that art can be a weapon. Or it can be medicine. I hope that art is, most of the time, medicine. I hope that art is not opium, as Nietzsche said, that God is dead, and religion is opium. But I love it when art is like a pill, helping you, easing you.
Adam
Do you think art helps people to see beyond the norm? To question some of the postulates of what is considered normal?
Dakota
Absolutely. The first question I ask is, what is art? For me, art is not just what sits in a museum or gallery. Art is everything you see; it’s all visual. Even culture, what’s happening, music, videos—everything, it’s all art. For example, in my experience, Verka Serduchka. I adore her. She was the first drag queen I ever saw. I fell in love with her the first time I saw her. But that’s also art. At the time when she was shown, there wasn’t such aggressive treatment of LGBT people. Even other groups from the post-Soviet Union. They were just making... Beautiful things, truly, I adore them. Her music, oh, I love her music video “Everything will be fine”.
Adam
There was stand-up as well.
Dakota
Yes, stand-up.
Adam
Everyone loved it.
Dakota
Yes, everyone loved it; it was all accepted, and there was acceptance at that time. But now it's banned; it's not broadcast. Everything is blocked. You mean about Kazakhstan? Yes, or about Russia. That’s also art that’s banned, that’s not shown. Because of that, part of the freedom just disappears. Some people don’t realize that if someone’s freedom is taken away, it will take a bit of time before your freedom will also be taken away. If that person couldn’t get married, then most likely, something will be banned for you or something won’t be given to you. That’s my view.
Adam
Thank you for your perspective, for coming today and sharing your mindset. It’s been an incredibly interesting conversation. Can you wish something to our listeners who are tuning in?
Dakota
Happiness, love, love, happiness, art, and having good people around you who support you, no matter what. Even if you’re wrong, you need time to realize it, but you should have good people around you who support you. Kindness, health, and art. Thank you.
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